England v West Indies

El Presidente · Disco Brad

England v West Indies

Date: May 9, 2007

I'd go for the same, Brad. There's talk of playing an extra batsman, but I find that such a defensive tactic, and it might put too much strain on Flintoff's bowling. With four bowlers, if one breaks down, you're in deep ****. Bopara and Colly can fill in a few overs, but they are not going to win you a game with wickets.

paichukka · ...Ding!

I don't think Jones the Seam is ready yet, more's the pity. There's no big rush though. Let him get fit.

Cook
Strauss (c)
Shah
KP
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Panesar
Harmison
Hoggard

Colly starts the test season as 12th man. Looks solid.

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

Can't agree with leaving Collingwood out. Do you really rate Bell and Shah above him? Having someone like him coming in at 5 is hugely important if we lose a few early on.
For me, Bell & Shah only both play if both Vaughan & KP are injured; if one plays, Bell's in.
When Vaughan and KP can both play, then Bell should miss out.
When Trezza's ready to come back (he's ruled himself out for next week but is in amazing form) then there's a real headache. Spoilt for choice batsmanwise.

I'd also go with Plunkett ahead of Broad, as he's been in sparkling form with bat and ball and could at some point start to resemble a genuine no.8. Anderson is not in the frame for me.

For next week, assuming no Vaughan or KP:

Cook
Strauss (capt)
Bell
Shah
Collingwood
Flintoff
Prior
Plunkett
Hoggy
Panesar
Harmison

With everyone fit and ready, it will look pretty damn inspiring:

Strauss
Trescothick
Vaughan (capt)
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Prior
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
S Jones

paichukka · ...Ding!

And I can't agree with your everyone-fit XI. Cook has to stay. Vaughan a) may never really be fit again, and b) has averaged 30 or so since becoming captain. So he's not worth his place. Shame, as he was class. Tres has an awful lot of convincing to do before he can be selected to tour again, and a cricketer who can never tour is no cricketer. Shame again. But times move on, and Cook and Strauss can cope. Shah needs his chance now. He's absolutely ready, and he's a shoo-in for the one-day side (given some hard work with his fielding). He can cut it in tests: straight down the track to the spinner, first ball, on debut, in India. That's balls. Bell gets first crack to hold his place, as he is more likely to make the breakthrough in test cricket. Colly's perhaps a little short of class in this format, but he's a good man, and challenging. They will all need to perform to stay in (even though none of them is as good as Ramprakash, ha).

And your tail's too long, even post-Fletcher. Which means Rashid instead of Panesar (too soon for that I think we'd all agree), or Broad in for Hoggard/Harmison if Jonesy's truly fit. Broad can bat, and could become our McGrath. Plunkett won't, and despite a supposedly good technique never scores any runs. Ever.

Prior above Flintoff in the batting order too, at least for the moment I'd say.

I think Moores will start the match with Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Flintoff, Prior, Plunkett, Hoggard, Harmison, Panesar

Shah in if KP's out.

-- Edited by paichukka at 14:13, 2007-05-10

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

I can see your point about Vaughan being constantly injured, but the value he adds as captain is worth him being in the side if he's fit. He simply has to be picked - even if he does only make 24 before miscuing to gully. Only a really sustained period of bad form with the bat should rule him out of the side.
Tres will return to the side, no question. He's only 31, he can't carry on forlornly smashing double hundreds in county cricket for the next 5 years as Ramprakash and Hick did (and still do). He should work on the mental thing and be ready to play every match, anywhere in the world. It's his duty.

I agree that Cook is class, but to have him knocking on the door will keep the other batsmen focused.
I don't agree that Shah should be picked if he's "ready" - there are plenty of Aussie batsmen who would be "ready" for test cricket, but they can't get into the side because there are better batsmen. I always hated the "so-and-so's good enough, he should be given a chance" attitude that was everywhere in English cricket in the 90's. Serious competition for places is vital for a team of winners.

And yeah, the tail's long, but I always say pick the best bowlers to bowl and the best batsmen to bat, and if you're lucky enough to have a Warne/Vaas/Vettori, great, but I would never pick a bowler because he can bat (or vice versa). Remember the Giles-over-Monty nonsense? I think I'm in a minority here though...

Anyway, if you're right, Moores agrees with me for next Thursday (!), so we'll have to see if we're right biggrin

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

Plunkett averages nearly 20 with the bat in first-class cricket, and 24 in ODIs... wink

paichukka · ...Ding!

Yeah I know Plunkett knows one end from the other. He never scores any in tests though. But Broad is going to be our tall, metronomic bowler for a decade. And score runs too. As Flintoff just isn't an all-rounder at the moment, it is a consideration. It's unlikely to matter against the Windies at home, but we need to build.

I don't think Shah's just ready btw, I think he's a better bat than either of the other two.

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

paichukka wrote:
Broad is going to be our tall, metronomic bowler for a decade. And score runs too.

Maybe, but he's injured now, so I would go for Plunkett.

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

So pretty much as expected then. Shah to replace KP if he's unfit. They're talking about the possibility of an extra batsman, but then they always do, and it never happens - pretty sure Plunkett will play.

El Treasurorio · Senior Member

Trescothick surely should not be picked until he agress to/is given the clear by the men in white coats to tour. You can't have a batsman playing only home tests and poo-pooing tours. He's either 100% in or 100% out, there should be no middle ground regardless of how amazing a batsman he is.

As for Collingwood, I think you'll do well to find a better English number 5 at the moment. Pieterson and him are the two biggest batting assets we have at the moment and the two players most likely to cause opposition captains a great deal of stress. They can both turn matches and it's only with them both dismissed that the opposition can breathe easy.

Although not a test player, I'd love to see Nixon keep wicket. He has the finest attitude to the game at the moment and surely should be rewarded with his last opportunity to keep for his 3 Lions to a weak WI side. It won't happen, but it surely should. (Please note: disregard my previous comment of 100% in or 100% out with Nixon. Nixon's a legend....)

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

Wouldn'tcha just know it - Freddie's a doubt now as well.
Anderson's been put on standby, which probably indicates how high their expectations are of FF's batting.
Tail is VERY long if it does work out like this though: Prior at 6 and Plunkett at 7??!

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

Difficult to find any info on what's happening at Lord's at the moment, but looks as if Shah is playing, and Flintoff isn't. Plunkett and Panesar are playing, and Anderson isn't.
Play should in theory be underway soon, as the rain stopped falling some time ago...

EDIT: of course it helps if you adjust the time on your PC when you return from Hungary, as then you'll look silly when you think it's 11:20 and it's actually 10:20. Glad I'm not that silly.

-- Edited by Muppet at 10:26, 2007-05-17

paichukka · ...Ding!

Ton up on debut for Prior. At Lord's. Which is nice.

Although Atherton (and others who never got one) must be looking at this Windies pace attack and wishing he'd been born 15 years later.

Harmison and Hoggard to draw some blood before stumps?

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

Monty stars with the ball in the WI's first innings - who'd have thought it? Harmison appears to have picked up exactly where he left off in Australia. If he doesn't improve during this series, his place has to be in doubt.
Common wisdom appears to be that the Windies will save the match - I'm not so sure, if we can get the final three wickets early on tomorrow we should be able to knock up enough runs for a 450 lead by the close. Then Monty and KP can have a go at spinning them out on the last day,and hopefully we won't feel Hoggy's absence too much.
Course if it rains...

Muppet · Je suis l'état et l'état c'est moi

England unchanged for the third test. Sidebottom will get the chance to shine again. Plunkie and Harmie must be approaching crunch time. They won't mind at all that Saj Mahmood's been ruled out for the next six weeks. Stuart Broad's return from injury might concern them a little more.
Windies not unchanged - probably Edwards in for Collymore and Chanderpaul (or if he's still not fit, Sammy) in for Sarwan.
Still don't see anything other than a comfortable victory for England, though. Bout time Strauss got a score as well. I was at Lord's yesterday, saw him dismissed caught behind for just 10 in Middlesex's game against Somerset, this after launching two beautiful cover drives. Frustrating for him - but he just needs some confidence and he'll be fine. Luckily for him his potential England rival Trescothick got a first ball...